Expressway ?

[PLUS]

This is a poll among the forumers on the best futuristic transport
solution for the state of Kerala. I have listed the present options
on the table for your mandate. Please participate and, of course,
voice your ideas too.

[PLUS]

I vote for 4-NH and HRC.


Thumbs down for ACE

** ACE is land intensive, expensive.

** ACE does not result in fuel savings compared to 4-NH. In fact as you
accelerate past 60 kmph you are losing mileage.

** There are only 4.5 million vehicles all over Kerala. 1 million runs in Kochi.

** ACE encourages an outdated concept of private transport means which
declining even in US where this originated. This is highly polluting and
inefficient. Even Germany is considering speed restriction on Autobahn.
What is needed is mass transport at high speed.

** ACE is highly accident prone. This is true through out the world, eg, the
speed restriction on Autobahn is also for reducing accidents.


** Even at its best transport by ACE is much slower than HRC. HRC easily
provides polution free, cheaper mass transport at speeds of 250 kmph.

** 4-lane NH is always a must for large transport vehicles particularly as Vallarpadam
is set to go full steam within 2 years and around 5 million containers will need to
be transported. The same also makes HRC important as rail based container
traffic to Kochi has already surged, even before Vallarpadam.


I welcome you to campaign ( preferably for 4-NH and HRC )

[DileepKS]

I support ACE and 4NH

** ACE is land intensive, expensive.

Hmm, HRC don't need land?

** ACE does not result in fuel savings compared to 4-NH. In fact as you
accelerate past 60 kmph you are losing mileage.

True about the speed, but the acceleration/deceleration and crawling on the NH is the killer. The net effect will be in favour of ACE.

** There are only 4.5 million vehicles all over Kerala. 1 million runs in Kochi.

Make ACEs wherever the traffic density demands it. Rest can be NH.

** ACE encourages an outdated concept of private transport means which
declining even in US where this originated. This is highly polluting and
inefficient. Even Germany is considering speed restriction on Autobahn.
What is needed is mass transport at high speed.

Not true. The developed nations take their good roads for granted. You need certain level of access controlled roads for smooth flow of traffic.

** ACE is highly accident prone. This is true through out the world, eg, the
speed restriction on Autobahn is also for reducing accidents.

Not true. The NHs are much more dangerous. A well designed ACE will reduce accidents.

** Even at its best transport by ACE is much slower than HRC. HRC easily
provides polution free, cheaper mass transport at speeds of 250 kmph.

Sure, But HRC needs a similarly developed local transit and road system all around the state to act as feeders.

** 4-lane NH is always a must for large transport vehicles particularly as Vallarpadam
is set to go full steam within 2 years and around 5 million containers will need to
be transported. The same also makes HRC important as rail based container
traffic to Kochi has already surged, even before Vallarpadam.

Confused! I thought HRC is for passenger traffic.

4 Laning of NH is THE priority. Then comes the district roads that feeds the NHs. Things like ACE and HRC comes only after that.

Look, the society and environment here are different than the other countries, or even the other states of India. Americans talk big about pollution, public transit etc, AFTER having good road infra. We don't have the primary road infra to begin with. You build a north-south HRC, and people will still have to ride the old busses running on the old potholed roads to reach the HRC.

The stretch of NH from Angamaly to Kundannoor is 4 lane already. Are you happy with the traffic? I don't think so. As the traffic consolidate beyond Aluva, each junction, and each gap in the median is affecting the flow. The ONLY way to fix that is to provide an ACE. Even the traffic between Angamaly and Trichur is pretty heavy (at least the last time I drove there, which was in May) and the flow is affected by the merging traffic. IMHO, the Salem-Trivandrum section of NH-47 has the critical mass to be an ACE.

[scorpiogenius]

I vote for 4-NH and HRC.


Thumbs down for ACE

** ACE is land intensive, expensive.

I beg to differ. An access controlled road is an inevitability for Kerala as a 4-laner with junctions and turn-arounds wont be of much use in the post-Vallarpadam era. NH 47 and NH 17 need to be 4/6 laned, no two voices, but it can in no way replace an Access Controlled Highway. You always have an auto rickshaw coming from the opposite direction or a cyclewala jumping across the divider on our NH47, where 70-80 km/hr is the best you can manage safely andconsistently.

** ACE does not result in fuel savings compared to 4-NH. In fact as you
accelerate past 60 kmph you are losing mileage.

Yes, but mileage is not the only factor you need to worry about. Time = money, I wouldn't mind burning a few extra gallons if it saves me a couple of hours. Well, we are speaking about businesses here and not just about aamchi Keralaites who have got plenty of time.

** ACE encourages an outdated concept of private transport means which
declining even in US where this originated. This is highly polluting and
inefficient. Even Germany is considering speed restriction on Autobahn.
What is needed is mass transport at high speed.

** ACE is highly accident prone. This is true through out the world, eg, the
speed restriction on Autobahn is also for reducing accidents.

Factually wrong! It may surprise you but American Interstate Highways have more accident rates than Autobahns!! This must be considering the fact that many of the accidents also involve motorists from other European countries going counter-flow as they get confused by the left-handed drive in Germany. And speed limits apply to many stretches of Autobahn.

Despite the prevailing high speeds, the accident, injury and death rates on the Autobahn are remarkably low. The Autobahn carries about a third of all Germany's traffic, but injury accidents on the Autobahn account for only 6% of such accidents nationwide and less than 12% of all traffic fatalities were the result of Autobahn crashes (2004). In fact, the annual fatality rate (3.2 per billion km in 2004) is consistently lower than that of most other superhighway systems, including the US Interstates (5.0 in 2003).

http://www.gettingaroundgermany.info/autobahn.htm

** Even at its best transport by ACE is much slower than HRC. HRC easily
provides polution free, cheaper mass transport at speeds of 250 kmph.

Agreed! But railways cant replace roadways.. They need to co-exist.

[PLUS]

Hello all

ACE option seem to have many takers including one hardcore (!).

Let me answer Dileep first.

1. Why is ACE land intensive. ACE needs a 100 mtr wide land acquition along the
length of Kerala. That is over 20000 acres approx. HRC on the other hand requires
only 20 mtr wide land ideally along the North-South rail line. A lot along the stretch
Railways have already acquired the land already ! Land acquisition qould be very
minimal.
However an ACE along the lines of what's proposed in Kochi - elevated ones
along NH - is fine since it needs nearly no land acquisition. That this may not be
viable is another thing.

2. I proposed 4-NH and HRC as a package. If implemented together, passenger traffic
on 4-NH is surely gonna drop as none really would want a tiring, costly road journey
than a comfortable, cheap HRC. Thus 4-NHs would be wide open for freight.


3. Here is the fun - Out of 4.5 million vehicles if you take out Kochi, Trissur, Tv'puram,
Kollam and Alleppey, the rest put together is less than 2 million !
Mumbai and Pune has more than 6 million vehicles put together. An ACE built there
became such a liability that to make it work the central govt had to transfer the
Mumbai-Pune NH to the same company for BOT development without tenders.
That is cross subsidizing ACE at the cost of NH !!

Guess what awaits 4.5 million strong Kerala vehicles ?

In fact I believe this factor is going to be the nail in the coffin for ACE proposal. No company would
take up such infeasible proposals. It would hang on the walls along with such
"grand-projects" which politicians of Kerala have been adept at cooking up.



4. NHs are dangerous when dangerous drivers are around. It is designed for 70-80 kmph
and when people exceed that NH become accident prone. It is a failure of enforcement.
For the same reason ACE would be accident prone too.
Compare this with an HRC, almost nowhere in the world has an HRC had a wrecking accident
yet. In fact world over countries are turning to this option as a means to avoid
greenhouse gas generating roads and aviation !!


5. HRC needs local transit. That just need existing rail-lines and roads developed
and maintained well.


6. Lastly on the freight issue, a passenger oriented HRC would relieve, similar to 4-NH,
bulk of the existing raillines off long distance passenger traffic. This also helps to
increase freight traffic on existing lines, many times.


Scorpio >

1. The free-for-all nature of NH has to be altered. NHAI laws do not allow this. So just
by enforcing current laws we can barricade NH dividors and provide walk over bridges
or designated crossings. An ACE on just this counts would be ridiculous profligacy.


2. Hello ! Roads in general are far less safe as it depends on millions of drivers
each of whom have to be careful. This is the fundamental drawback of road transport.
No matter how safe you create roads, thus people manage to crash !!
However mass transport Rails/Aviation/water transport have well trained pilots. Each of these
takes a 100 to 300 cars worth traffic off the road. Added bonus, it is less polluting.


Bottomline, 4-NH & HRC are essential. An ACE is agreeable as something along the 4-NH as a
completely elevated structure with no land acquisition.






Vote for 4-NH and ACE


Keep your speaker volumes loud enough

[DileepKS]

ACE option seem to have many takers including one hardcore (!).

Of course I am hardcore. I am fed up with the NHs, its structure, surface, the drivers on them, and the things that barge into them!!

1. Why is ACE land intensive. ACE needs a 100 mtr wide land acquition along the
length of Kerala. That is over 20000 acres approx. HRC on the other hand requires
only 20 mtr wide land ideally along the North-South rail line. A lot along the stretch
Railways have already acquired the land already ! Land acquisition qould be very
minimal.
However an ACE along the lines of what's proposed in Kochi - elevated ones
along NH - is fine since it needs nearly no land acquisition. That this may not be
viable is another thing.

The 100m wide right of way concept was what killed the original KEX project. The ACE just needs the NH standard right of way (60 metres). IMHO, in most of the stretches, you can make do with 45m.

In layout, the ACE is not much different than the NH, except that it is "Access controlled". The same width of carriageways, shoulder etc apply.

2. I proposed 4-NH and HRC as a package. If implemented together, passenger traffic
on 4-NH is surely gonna drop as none really would want a tiring, costly road journey
than a comfortable, cheap HRC. Thus 4-NHs would be wide open for freight.

That is not true. Someone going from Varantharappilly to Mavelikkara would prefer to drive up to the ACE, take it to reach near the destination, and drive off it. With HRC, he will have to drive to the station, take HRC, and use local transit at destination.

3. Here is the fun - Out of 4.5 million vehicles if you take out Kochi, Trissur, Tv'puram,
Kollam and Alleppey, the rest put together is less than 2 million !
Mumbai and Pune has more than 6 million vehicles put together. An ACE built there
became such a liability that to make it work the central govt had to transfer the
Mumbai-Pune NH to the same company for BOT development without tenders.
That is cross subsidizing ACE at the cost of NH !!

What about the vehicles that transit? Look at the number of freight trucks? How many are registered in Kerala?

Guess what awaits 4.5 million strong Kerala vehicles ?

In fact I believe this factor is going to be the nail in the coffin for ACE proposal. No company would
take up such infeasible proposals. It would hang on the walls along with such
"grand-projects" which politicians of Kerala have been adept at cooking up.

I don't agree. The current traffic over NH47 justifies an expressway.

4. NHs are dangerous when dangerous drivers are around. It is designed for 70-80 kmph
and when people exceed that NH become accident prone. It is a failure of enforcement.
For the same reason ACE would be accident prone too.

Most of the accidents happen because things 'unbecoming of a highway' happens, like trucks parked in the dark. Objects left in the roadway, vehicles coming from the wrong side etc. The ACE eliminates all those. So, the potential for accidents reduce.

Speed being the primary cause of accidents is an outdated and totally incorrect concept.

Compare this with an HRC, almost nowhere in the world has an HRC had a wrecking accident
yet. In fact world over countries are turning to this option as a means to avoid
greenhouse gas generating roads and aviation !!

It is true that HRC is safer, but it is not true that it reduces greenhouse gases. We depend a lot on thermal power plants for electricity, so the pollution is very much there.

5. HRC needs local transit. That just need existing rail-lines and roads developed
and maintained well.

Not only that. You need better and comfortable busses. I hail from Perumbavoor. If I was living there, and I wanted to go to TVM, would I ride the (current std) bus to Aluva HRC station and take a train? No way!! If there was a nice bus like those abroad, I would.

6. Lastly on the freight issue, a passenger oriented HRC would relieve, similar to 4-NH,
bulk of the existing raillines off long distance passenger traffic. This also helps to
increase freight traffic on existing lines, many times.

Agree on that.

1. The free-for-all nature of NH has to be altered. NHAI laws do not allow this. So just
by enforcing current laws we can barricade NH dividors and provide walk over bridges
or designated crossings. An ACE on just this counts would be ridiculous profligacy.

If you do that the NH becomes an ACE!! I can live with that!!!

2. Hello ! Roads in general are far less safe as it depends on millions of drivers
each of whom have to be careful. This is the fundamental drawback of road transport.
No matter how safe you create roads, thus people manage to crash !!
However mass transport Rails/Aviation/water transport have well trained pilots. Each of these
takes a 100 to 300 cars worth traffic off the road. Added bonus, it is less polluting.

Water transport seems to be the safest, so why don't you suggest that?

In fact during the days of heated debate on KEX, someone from LDF did suggest that. What we need is to develop the waterways instead of the experessway. I would ask him to take the BOAT next time he want to travel Kollam-Ernakulam!!

Bottomline, 4-NH & HRC are essential. An ACE is agreeable as something along the 4-NH as a
completely elevated structure with no land acquisition.

No. NH and ACE are essential. NH concerted as an ACE is acceptable.

[PLUS]

Dileep,

I'll reply in detail later.

Let me only point out that if you are hardcore, then what would I call that guy who voted
for "only ACE" option which I never expected to get any vote

[PLUS]

The 100m wide right of way concept was what killed the original KEX project. The ACE just needs the NH standard right of way (60 metres). IMHO, in most of the stretches, you can make do with 45m.

In layout, the ACE is not much different than the NH, except that it is "Access controlled". The same width of carriageways, shoulder etc apply.

If you do that the NH becomes an ACE!! I can live with that!!!

Dileep,

barricading NH may not make an ACE. But IMO, barricading according
to NHAI standards (eg. Golden Quad) will easily meet the traffic projections in most places.
elevated access controlled roads are necessary only at flashpoints like Kochi city.

That is not true. Someone going from Varantharappilly to Mavelikkara would prefer to drive up to the ACE, take it to reach near the destination, and drive off it. With HRC, he will have to drive to the station, take HRC, and use local transit at destination.

Not only that. You need better and comfortable busses. I hail from Perumbavoor. If I was living there, and I wanted to go to TVM, would I ride the (current std) bus to Aluva HRC station and take a train? No way!! If there was a nice bus like those abroad, I would.

He will not have to drive. Consider public transport options or even chauffeur service.
85% of the population of Kerala do not have an option "to drive".

Of course we need modern buses. We dont have it because, for ages, govt neglected public
transport. Buying 10000 more modern buses costs less than Rs. 3000 crore far less than
the projected cost of ACE ~ Rs.12000 crore.

It is true that HRC is safer, but it is not true that it reduces greenhouse gases. We depend a lot on thermal power plants for electricity, so the pollution is very much there.

You know, this is an age old question - debated and settled. A train running on thermal power
transporting 2500 people has less "carbon footprint" than 650 cars otherwise needed to cater to them. You have to take it, else you are going terribly wrong.

What about the vehicles that transit? Look at the number of freight trucks? How many are registered in Kerala?

I am willing to allow 1 million trucks (unreal, still). Yet, it will not make ACE feasible
economically. If you travel north of Trissur or South of Chertala you see a drastic drop
in number of trucks (Unsurprising) !! That may make a case for Trissur to Kochi stretch.
This could be catered to by six laning NH 47, no need to construct a brand new ACE.

Most of the accidents happen because things 'unbecoming of a highway' happens, like trucks parked in the dark. Objects left in the roadway, vehicles coming from the wrong side etc. The ACE eliminates all those. So, the potential for accidents reduce.

Speed being the primary cause of accidents is an outdated and totally incorrect concept.

Kindly see the reasons Chancellor Merkel has for proposing a speed restriction on Autobahn.

And compare it with the number of accidents happened in Germany's HRC. Its easy
HRC in Germany had ZERO accidents as opposed to dozens who die in hundreds of
accidents on Autobahn.

After all one crazy guy is enough to prove you wrong - trying to reach 150 kmph he
will see nothing in front.

BTW, a crazy loco pilot for HRC still cannot cause accident as
HRC has external controls to stop them.

And, on "unbecoming" issues - has the lorry driver of India vouched that he will
not do the same on ACE. This is an issue of lack of enforcement not design or construction.

Water transport seems to be the safest, so why don't you suggest that?

In fact during the days of heated debate on KEX, someone from LDF did suggest that. What we need is to develop the waterways instead of the experessway. I would ask him to take the BOAT next time he want to travel Kollam-Ernakulam!!

Indeed water transport is championed - for freight !! It is cheaper less polluting and
full use must be made of to relieve roads of freight trucks as much as possible.
But for passengers its HRC

[DileepKS]

barricading NH may not make an ACE. But IMO, barricading according
to NHAI standards (eg. Golden Quad) will easily meet the traffic projections in most places.
elevated access controlled roads are necessary only at flashpoints like Kochi city.

What is access controlled then?

Access controlled means two things.

1. Vehicles join and leave the traffic flow in a smooth, orderly fashion at designated interchanges. aka onramp/offramp
2. Other things, like pedestrians, animals, cyclists etc are prevented from entering the road.

If the NH-47 and NH-17 does that much, I am fine with it. Elevated is only a detail. However, considering the situation of our country, real access control is not possible without elevated roads.

He will not have to drive. Consider public transport options or even chauffeur service.
85% of the population of Kerala do not have an option "to drive".

Of course we need modern buses. We dont have it because, for ages, govt neglected public
transport. Buying 10000 more modern buses costs less than Rs. 3000 crore far less than
the projected cost of ACE ~ Rs.12000 crore.

The math isn't that simple.

Option 1: ACE + long distance busses
Option 2: HRC + TRAINS + improved local busses.

Compare the cost of building the HRC and ACE, because they are infrastructure.
Then compare the cost of aquiring the trains for HRC and local busses V/s cost of long distance busses for ACE. Those are investment
Then compare the running and maintenance cost of the Trains+local busses Vs the long distance busses.

That will give some good comparison.

You know, this is an age old question - debated and settled. A train running on thermal power
transporting 2500 people has less "carbon footprint" than 650 cars otherwise needed to cater to them. You have to take it, else you are going terribly wrong.

You should consider the end-to end travel, not just the train. It doesn't make much difference.

Also, the time of transfers also need to be considered. You don't get a train at your convenient times.

In all, HRC is welcome as an ADDITION to a good expressway, not as a replacement.

I am willing to allow 1 million trucks (unreal, still). Yet, it will not make ACE feasible
economically. If you travel north of Trissur or South of Chertala you see a drastic drop
in number of trucks (Unsurprising) !! That may make a case for Trissur to Kochi stretch.
This could be catered to by six laning NH 47, no need to construct a brand new ACE.

Whenever I travelled by road from Thrissur to Coimbatore by road, it used to be full of trucks coming from out of state. In fact your "drastic drop" in trucks doesn't hold water, since the local freight transit between Thrissur and Ernakulam is feeble, compared to the lifeline freight transport from out of the state.

The passenger traffic is different. The stretch from Walayar to Thrissur byepass looks kind of uniform, with remarkable increase as you go towards Kochi. It wanes off till Cherthala and stay uniform beyond till it reached kalavoor.

There is definitely justification of converting the NH-47 between TCR-CBE into an ACE, and for an elevated expressway from TCR to Cherthala.

Kindly see the reasons Chancellor Merkel has for proposing a speed restriction on Autobahn.

That is different. Autobahn didn't have ANY speed limit earlier. You can't compare the driving in Germany to that in Kerala.

Indeed water transport is championed - for freight !! It is cheaper less polluting and
full use must be made of to relieve roads of freight trucks as much as possible.
But for passengers its HRC

First you provide a good safe road for people to travel.
Then you give an HRC as a better option.

Not the other way around.

[PLUS]

Govt has appointed DMRC to do a feasibility study for HRC

If this takes off, it is gonna cut down private cars and buses on highways and thus
make an ACE unviable.

But, let me emphasize, I strongly advocate controlling access to NH. There should be
access at a regular interval without hindering traffic. One access controlled
road corridor and one HRC is ideal for the state.

September 12 2009
ബുള്ളറ്റ്‌ട്രെയിന്‍; പ്രാഥമിക പഠനത്തിന്‌ കെ.എസ്‌.ഐ.ഡി.സി.യെ ചുമതലപ്പെടുത്തി

തിരുവനന്തപുരം: തിരുവനന്തപുരം - കാസര്‍കോട്‌ അതിവേഗ റെയില്‍പ്പാത നിര്‍മിക്കുന്നതിനെക്കുറിച്ച്‌ പ്രാഥമികപഠനം നടത്താന്‍ സംസ്ഥാന വ്യവസായ വികസന കോര്‍പ്പറേഷനെ (കെ.എസ്‌.ഐ.ഡി.സി.) സര്‍ക്കാര്‍ ചുമതലപ്പെടുത്തി.

തിരുവനന്തപുരത്ത്‌ നിന്ന്‌ നാലുമണിക്കൂര്‍ കൊണ്ട്‌ കാസര്‍കോട്ട്‌ എത്തുന്നവിധം ബുള്ളറ്റ്‌ ട്രെയിന്‍ സര്‍വീസ്‌ നടത്തുന്നതിന്റെ പ്രായോഗികതയെക്കുറിച്ചാണ്‌ പഠനം. ഒരു മാസത്തിനുള്ളില്‍ കെ.എസ്‌.ഐ.ഡി.സി റിപ്പോര്‍ട്ട്‌ നല്‌കും.

കെ.എസ്‌.ഐ.ഡി.സി. റിപ്പോര്‍ട്ടിന്റെ അടിസ്ഥാനത്തില്‍ ഡല്‍ഹി മെട്രോ റെയില്‍ കോര്‍പ്പറേഷന്‍ പ്രോജക്ട്‌ റിപ്പോര്‍ട്ട്‌ തയ്യാറാക്കും. ധനമന്ത്രി ഡോ. തോമസ്‌ ഐസക്കും ഡല്‍ഹി മെട്രോ റെയില്‍ കോര്‍പ്പറേഷന്‍ എം.ഡി. ഡോ. ഇ. ശ്രീധരനും തമ്മില്‍ നടന്ന കൂടിക്കാഴ്‌ചയില്‍ പദ്ധതിയെക്കുറിച്ച്‌ ചര്‍ച്ച ചെയ്‌തിരുന്നു. പദ്ധതി പ്രായോഗികമാണെങ്കില്‍ മെട്രോ റെയില്‍ കോര്‍പ്പറേഷനെ തന്നെ നിര്‍മാണച്ചുമതല ഏല്‌പിക്കാനാണ്‌ സര്‍ക്കാരിന്റെ ആലോചന.

കേരളത്തില്‍ റെയില്‍ കോര്‍പ്പറേഷന്‍ രൂപവത്‌കരിക്കുമെന്ന്‌ സംസ്ഥാന ബജറ്റില്‍ പ്രഖ്യാപിച്ചിരുന്നു. പദ്ധതിക്ക്‌ മുന്നോടിയായി റെയില്‍ കോര്‍പ്പറേഷന്‍ യാഥാര്‍ത്ഥ്യമാക്കും. റെയില്‍വേയുമായി സഹകരിച്ച്‌ പദ്ധതി നടപ്പാക്കുന്നതിനെക്കുറിച്ച്‌ ആലോചിക്കണമെന്നാണ്‌ ഇ. ശ്രീധരന്റെ നിര്‍ദ്ദേശം.

ഇത്തരം വമ്പന്‍ പദ്ധതികള്‍ക്ക്‌ പണം സ്വരൂപിക്കുക എന്ന ലക്ഷ്യവും കൂടി ഇസ്‌ലാമിക ബാങ്കിങ്‌ തത്ത്വങ്ങള്‍ അനുസരിച്ചുള്ള ധനകാര്യ സ്ഥാപനം രൂപവത്‌കരിക്കാനുള്ള സര്‍ക്കാരിന്റെ നീക്കത്തിനുണ്ട്‌.
മാതൃഭൂമി

[DileepKS]

Let me get this straight. You support the conversion of the NH to an access controlled highway, and not building a new ACE. Right?

I agree to that, provided outer byepasses are built for the major cities. Angamaly-Cherthala included.